Denzity Insights Transcript: Real Estate Tokenization: Everything You Need To Know with Jason Chan


Real Estate Tokenization: Everything You Need To Know with Jason Chan

Connect with Jason:

Website: https://www.sidley.com/en/people/c/chan-jason

LinkedIn: https://hk.linkedin.com/in/jasonchanch

Email: [email protected]

Real estate tokenization has been a popular topic in the real estate sector. It can potentially be a new medium by which everyday investors can overcome the traditional barriers to enter the real estate market.

In this episode, Jason provides an in-depth overview of how real estate tokenization works.

Jason Chan is an associate in the funds and financial regulatory team in Sidley Austin Hong Kong. He focuses on investment funds formation transactions, including real estate funds and tokenized funds, as well as a diverse range of financial regulatory matters related to funding managers and Fintech companies. Notably, his team worked on Asia’s first tokenized fund.

  • What is Real Estate Tokenization?
  • What are the pros and cons of tokenization?
  • What are the things to be aware of?

As it can be difficult to catch some minor errors, transcripts may contain a few typos or inaccuracies.

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Terminology & Source:

Security Token Offering: While both STOs and ICOs have the same process of making an offer of tokens or cryptocurrencies to the public, STO is more secure because the platforms need to abide by the laws and regulations, guaranteeing security.

https://cointelegraph.com/explained/what-is-an-sto-explained

Real Estate Security Token Offering: STO in real estate allows investors to have fractional ownership as the security tokens represent the market value of tokenized real estate assets.

Initial Coin Offering: Initial coin offering is the process in which cryptocurrencies are sold for a limited period of time in order to raise funds for a project.

Tokenized funds: Tokenized funds are capital funds that have been tokenized with the use of blockchain technology.

https://crypto.bi/tape/tokenized-funds/

Crowdfunding: Crowdfunding is the way in which a new business or organization reach their target amount by collecting small amounts of money from a large number of individuals in return for a profit or some benefit. It typically takes place on the internet.

https://www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/en/articles/crowdfunding–what-you-need-to-know

Real Estate Crowdfunding: Real Estate Crowdfunding is when real estate firms collect capitals by crowdfunding. It allows investors to become a shareholder of the property by spending only a little amount of money and without going through the hassle of any middleman. For companies, it’s an easy way to raise a handsome capital which would otherwise be difficult to extort.

https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/100214/what-real-estate-crowdfunding.asp

Real Estate Peer To Peer Lending: Real Estate P2P enables borrowers to borrow money for real estate projects, directly from the investors or lenders without having a bank involved. The investors can own a small share in the invested property and get a good percentage of annual return.

https://www.fool.com/millionacres/real-estate-financing/real-estate-101-what-peer-peer-lending/

Peer to Peer Lending: Commonly known as P2P, peer to peer lending platforms connect investors to parties who are looking for a loan without going through any traditional financial institution such as a bank or a middleman.

https://www.lendingworks.co.uk/finance-guides/p2p-lending/what-is-peer-to-peer-lending

Digital security: Digital security tools let you keep all your online info protected from an intruder. The protected items can be anything starting from your personal info to your banking info, and even the software you use.

Blockchain technology: A blockchain is basically a chain of blocks containing information online. The structure of blockchain technology is designed as such so that the data stored within cannot be tampered with.

https://www.euromoney.com/learning/blockchain-explained/what-is-blockchain

Distributed ledger: Unlike blockchain, the records within a distributed ledger do not have to be in blocks or in chains. This database can replicate and share data across the world and without having a central administrator. A blockchain is a form of Distributed Ledger Technology(DLT).

Fractionalization: Fractionalization refers to the concept of having shared ownership of the same asset or property, as well as splitting the benefit as per the ownership amount that comes out of the property.

https://www.r3.com/blog/asset-fractionalisation%E2%80%8A-%E2%80%8Awhat-why-and-the-future/

Smart contract: Smart Contract computer programs ease the process of digitally verifying different bits of a contract. It does not require a middleman and is comparatively inexpensive and time-efficient.

https://blockgeeks.com/guides/smart-contracts/

Securities & Futures Commission Of Hong Kong: SFC is responsible for maintaining and securing the future industry by promoting market regulations.

https://www.sfc.hk/web/EN/index.html

SFC Type 1 License: Dealing in securities. Examples: Trading /broking stock options for clients,

trading bonds for clients, buying / selling mutual funds and unit trusts for clients, placing and underwriting of securities.

https://www.sfc.hk/web/EN/regulatory-functions/intermediaries/licensing/guide-to-licence-application/regulated-activities.html

Singapore Regulatory Authority MAS: MAS works as Singapore’s central bank as well as its financial regulatory authority.

https://www.mas.gov.sg

Real Estate Tokenization Whitepaper:

https://sites-sidley.vuturevx.com/133/9330/upload-folder/real-estate-tokenization-v006.pdf


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Alright, let’s get back to the transcript of the show. Enjoy!

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Darren: Hey, Jason, how’s it going?

Jason: Good. How are you? 

Darren: Good. You know, as I said just now it’s like, very hectic. But you know, this is important because a lot of people, obviously have a lot of question with real estate STO, STO as a whole. And I’m sure someone like you will give people a better idea of what exactly is going on and down with the technicality behind that. So people who doesn’t know who you are, would you mind telling them what you do and the work that you’re working on?

Jason: Yeah, sure. So I’m Jason Chan. I’m an Associate at Sidley Austin, focusing on funds and financial regulatory. So my practice focuses on investments on formation transactions, which includes real estate funds, of course, and tokenized funds, as well as a diverse range of financial regulatory matters related to fund managers and FinTech companies. So my team has worked on Asia’s first tokenized fund and we’ve also recently assisted a client in launching their tokenized quants, hedge fund investing in currency.

Darren: I see. So for people who doesn’t understand about the whole question of ownership segment, right, what does real estate tokenization mean and how is it different than like real estate, crowdfunding or real estate peer to peer?

Jason: Yeah so in short, tokenization generally means moving traditional non-digital securities to a digital form using the blockchain technology and real estate tokenization specifically means that enabling investments in the form of digital tokens backed by real estate in the real world. So, these tokens can represent either equity that economic interest or revenue stream generated from the real estate asset. At the core of tokenization is as I mentioned, blockchain technology which is a type of distributed ledger where you secure identical copies of data across a network of authorized stakeholders, and we can leverage the secure immutable policies of blockchain technology for the tokenization, which can facilitate additional fractional ownership with secure transaction records and also very quick settlement process. So there are a few kind of like advantages of tokenization which includes like fractionalization, which lowers the barriers of entry for investments, operational efficiency, data transparency and most importantly for most of the investor, liquidity. So, I mean, like in terms of difference between real estate crowdfunding and real estate tokenization, while both of them allow for fractionalization of traditionally big ticket investments such as real estate, it lowers the the barriers of entry and also democratize the whole access of real estate asset. So the main differences between the two are basically threefold. So first of all, unlike tokenized real estate, there’s no liquidity in real estate crowdfunding. So investors are often unable to treat these investments on the secondary market and there’s no exit option for investors. So, for tokenized real estate, you can, the investors can often trade these tokens with directly b2b to other investors or they can trade some of them when they are listed in an exchange, they can trade it on an exchange. Second of all, real estate crowdfunding does not provide for the operational efficiency enjoyed by tokenization via the use of blockchain technology. For example, the blockchain technology can allow you to use smart contract for automation for certain compliances and also post issuance process, such as dividend distribution. And thirdly, Real Estate Crowdfunding is usually just simply crowdfunding of equity of that interest in rate estate. But for tokenization, you can basically tokenize anything like it can be other aspects of real estate such as revenue stream and also economic economic interest from real estate assets. 

Darren: So it sounds like the real estate security token offering is actually like a 2.0 crowdfunding then, am I correct? 

Jason: Yeah, yes, basically. 

Darren: Yeah. I see. So what are the key elements to make a real estate tokenization work? 

Jason: Yeah, so other than, of course, the real estate asset itself, and also the asset owner. The other elements are all key players in real estate. Tokenization includes, of course, the technology platform provider, which is like the guide who actually knows the blockchain and provides the technology platform so you can move the interests of the real estate onto the blockchain. So that’s, of course the most fundamental thing and of course, I’m a lawyer so I’m going to say a lawyer is a key thing in real estate. 

Darren: Just don’t forget that.

Jason: Yeah, yeah. Never forget that. It’s very important to ensure that legal documentation reflects the commercial intention of the investors and also the issuer. Administrators are also very important, they handle all the administrative methods, which are really annoying, such as the registered members subscription and etc. Tech advisor, they provide very good advice as to how to structure it the most tech efficient way, or the security token issuance. And finally, of course, because it’s dealing with real estate, we need a real estate valuer. Who can value the underlying real estate asset for the issuer.

Darren: Well, you know, I’ve been hearing about real estate tokenization for many, many years, but it doesn’t seem like the industry has much, you know, cases or things that are going on. What’s the reason behind that? Or I’m sleeping under a rock, like, I just want to know what’s going on there. 

Jason: Yeah, you’re right. You’re right. So there hasn’t been a whole lot of real estate tokenization. There are a few outside of Asia but those are mostly very small projects and also usually for very private investors. So, I think the main two main reasons for real estate tokenization not being as popular as it should be is first of all, the incomplete ecosystem and infrastructure. So, generally speaking the tokenization ecosystem and infrastructure globally I think is not fully developed yet. This may be due to just very unclear restrictive laws and regulations, it can be a lack of expertise or talent or simply that there is insufficient amount of players in the market due to a lack of interest or interest in the new industry because the whole blockchain and tokenization industry is relatively new. So, a lot of things are still being developed. Second of all, I think that there’s currently a lack of investor or financial industry players interested and confident. So, larger traditional institutional investors, and financial industry players, I’m not exactly comfortable with the concept of security tokens, nor blockchain so that they’re still very skeptical about anything that’s blockchain, anything that’s related to cryptocurrency. However, during these months, especially, I think they are absurd trying to offset the market and there has been more interest from in-q incumbent financial industry players, more high net worth individuals, family offices, and also tech companies who are getting into the scene.

Darren: I see, yeah, I was gonna ask you too because we’re like recovering from COVID and the recession. Does Covid help or worsen the tokenization potential?

Jason: Yeah, I think it actually does help speed up the whole interest in adaptation of real estate tokenization. So I think there are two reasons. So first of all, because economic activities are slowing down these days, asset managers and investors have more time to explore new ways they can manage their investments, with more flexibility. And one of the options out there being tokenization. So everyone kind of like, has more time to actually not do the deals and actually look at new ways of doing deals. And more importantly, I think during the economic downturn, many investors are looking for exit option for the investments, but they’re not able to do so at the moment because of the illiquid nature of their of certain investments such as, like, if they invest in private equity fund real estate or real estate funds they have a long lockup period or they can only usually withdraw when it’s the end of the term of the fund. So now they are looking at ways where they’re resisting ways that they can easily exit and build the interest, the investment in the future. And organization is definitely one of the more attractive options available.

Darren: I see. So going back to one of the questions I just asked you, and you kind of covered it, right. You know, how you talk about, like, a lot of investors are not looking at it yet, and a lot of players are missing. So it’s not only today, it’s like a three, four things are missing. So in your point of view, how is the ecosystem of tokenization at the moment? What else is missing? And what kind of parties are involved in order to make everything happen?

Jason: Yeah, so I think for the time being, like, as I mentioned, the ecosystem infrastructure of real estate tokenization, it’s really at its early stage and is far from complete or mature like a traditional counter, like financial counterparts. For example, in Hong Kong, there’s yet to be a regulator or licensed asset trading platform approved by the Hong Kong securities regulator, so the SMC. And in Singapore, the regulator approves traditional trading platforms backed by the Singaporean government. But generally there’s a lack of interest in security token issuance. So, I mean, like in different jurisdiction, they do different things. And I think, also, like many market players are still warming up to this relatively new technology and way or fundraising. In terms of the parties getting involved in order to list the project, I mean, in addition to that, the few that I mentioned just now like the technology platform lawyer, administrator, tech advisor, and real estate, valuer, I think, of course, the most important thing is the investor. So the investor needs to be interested in order for people to stop thinking about issuance of real estate tokens, and that’s the main driver for I mean, like money is the main driver for most businesses. So, yeah, I think that’s still kind of missing at the moment.

Darren: I see. So all of that right, obviously, followup this debt, you know, where are we at in Hong Kong with the RESTO, you know, there is a security token offering. And then, Sharif, is there any projects going on? Or should we see any product listings coming up soon?

Jason: Yeah, so in Hong Kong, so I’ll cover basically Hong Kong and Singapore because we recently issued a report covering those two jurisdictions. So in Hong Kong, we are seeing that tokenization and virtual asset ecosystem are trying to get more established anyway, and more market players are following us in this space. So in terms of the regulatory environment, it’s getting clearer because the SFC is giving quite a bit of guidance generally, and they have been granting licenses to my managers who manages cryptocurrency and security tokens, so we anticipate that the SFC will soon, sometime this year grab their first virtual asset trading platform license across which hopefully, fingers crossed, hopefully make the ecosystem more complete and more welcoming to the asset owners looking to tokenization because ultimately, the promise of tokenization is increasing liquidity, right. So then no trading platform doing ads, investors won’t be comfortable enough to get into the tokenization market. And if there’s no investors, as I mentioned, there’ll be no asset owner who wants to tokenize the asset. So ultimately, if the infrastructure is built in Hong Kong, that there is a trading platform, it will help a lot. And in Singapore, we’re seeing that as I mentioned, we think that the Singapore Regulatory Authority MAS has already approved two government backed security token exchanges. And so the network is, in a sense more mature than that of Hong Kong. And that said, we’re actually seeing less security token offering in Singapore at this age when compared to Hong Kong. It’s kind of weird. So I’m guessing that perhaps market players in the Southeast Asian countries are still warming up to this new way of raising. That said, because the government is trying to push for Singapore to be the Asian FinTech hub. I think we will definitely see more tokenization projects coming in the next 12 to 18 months. And in terms of opportunities, I think a lot of traditional financial institutions are still looking into tokenization but not really fully dived into this market. So we’re seeing more newer and smaller market players who will take this opportunity to have trial basis whole industry and gain a first mover advantage over the incumbent bigger players in the financial and real estate market. For example, like there are usually smaller projects, which they serve as test case for them to show that investors that oh actually it works, and also for them to kind of figure out and smooth out all the operational and practical problems before they go to the bigger market and tell all their existing investors, “Hey, like we have this tokenization project, which is huge and you should be part of it.” So, I think this will take some time. And also like all these players will have to give a bit more investment into  these kind of projects before they can actually grow the market and also it will be a very steep learning process for all the markets.

Darren: I see, Well for Denzity, right, we hope that people are participating in more real estate investing. So when you talk about this whole thing, in my head I was like, “I really wish this happened because it takes only one or two people like the lawyers obviously and all the different regulatory, when combined together to make this happen.” It’s like a community though, you know, you have to push forward. So, with that, right, what are some things that an investor should keep in mind when it comes to really tokenization?

Jason: Yeah, so as a lawyer, I’m going to talk about regulations, right. So from a regulatory point of view, definitely, globally speaking, like regulatory regimes surrounding tokenization it’s very difficult now, difficult to navigate, especially for newer players in the financial industry, if they are from a technology background. So for those who are in the finance industry, that are usually more used to being regulated by securities regulators, but for tech industry players, they usually come free and do whatever they want. So if they want to do it a proper way and they want to get on board, some bigger financial institutions on board, they will have to navigate the securities related regulations before they actually kick start a project. So please seek proper legal and regulatory advice as a lawyer. Jokes aside, yes, that’s that’s actually very important because we do see securities regulators take enforcement actions against non compliant projects, especially if they’re very public. So on an operational level because we have assisted clients and doing that tokenization project recently. So from experience, because blockchain and digital assets are newly introduced in this world of asset management, there’s no like established standard or modus operandi as to the responsibilities and industry standards for party service providers, such as administrator, custodian, technology service providers. So there are situations from our experience where they’re engaged and only a very late stage of the tokenization and the asset owner or the Manage fund manager finds out in the very last minute that the service provider is actually not able to accommodate any proposed arrangements. So we have to change all the documentation, we have to figure out all the mechanism so there’s no it’s no standards, so they don’t know what standard to meet in a sense. So I mean, it’s logistically, from an operational perspective, I think when doing a tokenization project, these service providers need to be engaged at a very, very early stage of tokenization and the documenting.

Darren: I see. So like, for the past two years, right, are there any type of cases like in 2019, 2020 that are successful?

Jason: Yeah. So, we are globally speaking we are lucky, we see a lot of success case organization generally. And, it covers all types of assets, any types of asset you think you can think of, that are traditionally illiquid or big ticket So, such as art and of course real estate, private equity and other exotic asset classes or commodities. So in addition to tokenization of a single piece of asset for example, a single piece of land or single piece of art, more recently, we are actually seeing more interest in tokenization of funds and state funds so we have recently helped our client launch a tokenized actively manage quant fund, which features cryptocurrency as one of the asset classes. So, if you want more details definitely contact us and, and let us know if you’re interested. So, I mean in terms of these project size of these success cases, we know that there are usually at this stage relatively small. For Example, it’s still kind of like one asset, a small piece of asset and with very few investors and generally just a generally smaller scale fundraise.  Projects are usually done by the manager or the asset owner as a proof of contact or communicate. So for them to kind of figure out all the operational and logistical aspects before they go on to do bigger projects.

Darren: So what type of landlords or estate owners should or should not participate in real estate tokenization.

Jason: Okay, to me, all asset owners should at least consider tokenization because we do anticipate that it will become increasingly popular. As I mentioned, there’s a lot of benefits to tokenization and investors are looking into it. So they will eventually, some of them will eventually demand tokenization as part of their term for investments. So like, if you are a real estate owner, at least kind of know what it is and think and put it at the back of your mind. Because in case someone asks you, oh, can we tokenize this because I want liquidity for my investment and in the future, at least you know what it is and you can talk to the relevant people, for example, my book are also the liquify. And with that said I mean, like the asset owners should consider how they can structure that tokenization project. So whether it’s a single project single asset fund, a multi projects fund blind pool or do they only tokenize their equity or beneficial ownership or economic interests are just a revenue stream. So things like what kind of interests of the real estate asset they should tokenize and when doing this, they have to bear in mind of their specific business operation and management strategy. So, if you don’t want any management decision, maybe when tokenizing you should put some of the management account faulting into the tokens that you issue. If you want to retain the management then maybe you should only tokenize the economic interest. If you want to still retain the ownership then you should only perhaps tokenize the revenue stream or tokenized asset, as opposed to the equity or the economic interest. 

Darren: That’s cool. This is a lot of things to digest. And, you know, I’m still learning about it. So for firms that want to participate in real estate tokenization what do they need to have?

Jason: Yep. So I mean, as I mentioned just now for folks who want to participate in the real estate tokenization as these tokens are usually considered a security in most jurisdictions, at least most of the popular jurisdictions, they will have to comply with the local securities laws and regulations. And perhaps in those jurisdictions, they might have this virtual assets specific rules and regulations. So, for example, in Hong Kong, if the Fed wants to market or distribute a security tokens, it will have to obtain a type 1 license with the SFC or find a type 1 license who’s registered with the SFC as well as notify the SFC. As well as the licensee, they have to notify the SFC office plan to distribute security token. And for example, if you want to become a virtual asset trading platform trading security tokens of real estate, then the SFC has also issued licensing terms and conditions for these operators locked back in last year, which sets out some eligibility and regulatory requirements for security token exchange to operate in Hong Kong all for Hong Kong person. So, and also for Asset Management, asset managers who manages funds with exposure to virtual assets, depending on the level of their exposure to these virtual assets, they might also have to notify the SFC of such investments and comply with the relevant virtual asset managers specific terms and conditions. So basically, you have as a lawyer we always have to remind you to be compliant and think about the regulatory issues before you go on to pursue a project. 

Darren: No, like, I feel like for the past, like 20, I don’t know how long we’ve done maybe 20 minutes. It’s like this one lecture in university, but it is so much more fun and engaging and there’s a lot that’s interesting. Oh, yes, I feel like that and obviously that’s what we hope with this whole Denzity insights channel. It’s that people can have more engaging learning same time is that you’re someone who has the credentials to do that. You know, you’re not just someone on the internet. So on a personal note, right, it’s something that I’m just curious to know more about and how you think about it, right? How do you feel about learning this whole industry? Because I don’t know what you have done, what kind of like field you’re in or what kind of sector you were in before. But how do you feel after learning all that and how do you feel about the future of this whole, you know, real estate STO potential?

Jason: Yeah, so I think because the benefits are quite obvious to many investors, I think many larger players are really looking into it and some of them are asking us about the regulatory framework, as well as the commercial aspects of these real estate STO so I think they’re really thinking about it when they are doing future projects. Maybe they won’t really deep dive at this very moment considering all the factors and economic downturn but in the future, they would definitely get into it and I see like, generally speaking the blockchain industry, many of the larger financial players are getting into the game for example, modality and also like northern trust, they are getting into the virtual asset custody business. So I mean, like they’re getting serious about it and we do see a lot of institutional investors looking at virtual assets as a viable and also not reliable but one of the future asset classes that they look to have exposure in so I think it’s a good time to start learning about real estate tokenization because it will become popular I think and I do think the ecosystem will be mature enough in the future for this serious kind of investment by institutional and financial investor.

Darren: That’s kind of cool. I mean, again, hoping for ASAP. So, what kind of takeaway do you want the audience to have with this video?

Jason: Yeah, so I think five main takeaways is a bit much but it’s fine. So first of all, advantages of tokenization, which includes lowering variable acts of entry for investments, operational efficiency, data transparency and most importantly liquidity, which is very important to investors. Second point the ecosystem and infrastructure of real estate organization is still at its very early age. And as it has to be mature enough for serious industry players to join. Third point, marketing players are warming up to this new way of amazing and the regulatory environment is getting clearer and investors are considering tokenization as an attractive potential exit option. Fourth point being, as traditional financial institution are not yet dived into this market, new and smaller market players should take into account this opportunity to trailblaze the industry and gain the best mover advantage. And lastly, it’s a sales pitch. So we had one of the agents first tokenized fund and we have recently assisted a client in launching a tokenized quant fund investing in cryptocurrency. So find us if you have any questions about tokenization.

Darren: I mean, everything falls under that one takeaway. But then how do people find you, what some ways that you would suggest people to reach out to you and learn more about it?

Jason: Yep. So if you’re interested in knowing more about real estate tokenization, tokenization generally, or just want to see how we can help with your tokenization project, you can reach out to me by email at [email protected] You can also read about tokenized Real Estate tokenization in a report that we have co authored with Liquefy, Colliers, and KPMG. And I think we can provide you with a link somewhere afterwards. 

Darren: Yeah, that’s cool. That’s good. And then I think that that’s something that like even this whole interview, there’s a lot things I didn’t digest, and then I just want to say thanks for your time because you know, it is something that I am really looking forward to and it’s good to have an update on that. So someone with a professional background like yourself, just to know more about what’s going on, it’s an exciting time it’s still wild west, you know? So kind of cool.

Jason: Yeah, yeah. Anyway, so inviting me to this.

Darren: I just want the audience to know more about what’s going on out there. And yeah, so let’s try again next time and again, thanks a lot. And then maybe we can do a longer form next time with updates. That’d be great.

Jason: Yeah, sure. Sure.Thank you very much.

Darren: Thank you. Have a good one then.

Jason: Thank you. Yeah, you too. 

Darren: Bye bye.

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Darren :嘿,Jason,最近怎麼樣?

Jason:很好。你好嗎?

Darren :很好。你知道,就像我剛才說的,很忙。但你要知道,這很重要,因為很多人顯然對房地產STO有很多疑問。更好的瞭解,到底發生了什麼,以及背後的技術性問題。對於那些不知道你是誰的人,你介不介意告訴他們你正在做的工作呢?

Jason:是的,當然。所以我叫Jason Chan。我是Sidley Austin的助理,專注於基金和金融監管。囙此,我的業務集中在對資訊交易的投資上,其中當然包括房地產基金和標記化基金,以及與基金經理和金融科技公司相關的各種金融監管事項。囙此,我的團隊一直致力於亞洲第一隻代幣化基金的開發,最近我們還協助一比特客戶推出了他們的標記化基金,即對沖基金投資於貨幣。

Darren :我明白了。囙此,對於那些不瞭解所有權部分整個問題的人來說,房地產標記化意味著什麼?它與房地產、眾籌或房地產對等交易有什麼不同?

Jason:簡言之,代幣化通常意味著使用區塊鏈科技將傳統的非數位證券轉換為數位形式,而房地產代幣化特別意味著能够在現實世界中以房地產支持的數位代幣形式進行投資。囙此,這些代幣既可以代表經濟利益的權益,也可以代表房地產資產產生的收入流。如我所述,權杖化的覈心是區塊鏈科技,它是一種分佈式帳本,您可以通過授權的利益相關者網絡保護相同的數據副本,我們可以利用區塊鏈科技的安全不變策略進行標記化,這可以促進額外的部分所有權安全的交易記錄和快速的結算過程。囙此,代幣化有一些類似的優勢,包括類似的分拆,它降低了投資的進入壁壘、運營效率、數據透明度,對大多數投資者來說最重要的是流動性。所以,我的意思是,就像房地產眾籌和房地產代幣化之間的區別一樣,雖然這兩種方式都允許對房地產等傳統的大額投資進行分拆,但這降低了進入壁壘,也使房地產資產的整體准入民主化。所以兩者之間的主要區別基本上是三方面的。首先,與標記化房地產不同,房地產眾籌沒有流動性。囙此,投資者通常無法在次級市場上處理這些投資,投資者也沒有退出的選擇。囙此,對於代幣化的房地產,你可以,投資者通常可以直接通過b2b交易給其他投資者,或者他們可以在交易所上市時交易其中一些代幣,他們可以在交易所交易。其次,房地產眾籌並沒有提供通過使用區塊鏈科技的權杖化所帶來的運營效率。例如,區塊鏈科技可以讓您使用智慧合約來實現某些合規性的自動化,以及發行後的流程,如股息分配。第三,房地產眾籌通常只是對利率房地產權益的眾籌。但是對於標記化,你基本上可以標記化任何東西,比如房地產的其他方面,比如收入流和來自房地產資產的經濟利益。

聽起來像是一個代幣,所以我提供的是一個代幣,所以實際上是一個代幣?

Jason:是的,是的,基本上。

Darren :是的。我懂了。那麼,讓房地產標記化工作的關鍵要素是什麼?

Jason:是的,當然,除了房地產資產本身,還有資產所有者。其他因素都是房地產領域的關鍵人物。當然,標記化包括科技平臺提供商,這就像真正瞭解區塊鏈並提供科技平臺的指南,以便您可以將房地產的利益轉移到區塊鏈上。這是最基本的,當然,我是律師,所以我要說,律師是房地產的關鍵。

Darren :別忘了。

Jason:是的,是的。別忘了。確保法律檔反映投資者和發行人的商業意圖是非常重要的。管理員也是非常重要的,他們處理所有令人討厭的管理方法,關於如何以最具科技效率的管道構建,或安全權杖發行,提供了非常好的建議。最後,當然,因為這是房地產,我們需要一個房地產估價師。誰可以為發行人評估基礎房地產資產。

Darren :好吧,你知道,我聽說房地產標記化已經很多很多年了,但是這個行業似乎沒有太多,你知道,案例或事情正在發生。這背後的原因是什麼?或者我睡在石頭下麵,就像,我只想知道那裡發生了什麼。

Jason:是的,你說得對。你說得對。囙此,房地產標記化的現象並不多見。亞洲以外也有一些但這些項目大多是非常小的項目,而且通常針對非常獨家投資者。囙此,我想房地產標記化不如它受歡迎的兩個主要原因首先應該是生態系統和基礎設施不完善。所以,一般來說,標記化生態系統和基礎設施在全球範圍內,我認為還沒有完全發展。這可能是由於限制性法律法規非常不明確,也可能是缺乏專業知識或人才或僅僅是因為對新事物缺乏興趣或興趣,市場上的玩家數量不足行業,因為整個區塊鏈和標記化行業相對較新。所以,很多東西還在開發中。第二個總之,我認為現時缺乏投資者或金融行業參與者的興趣和信心。囙此,對於規模較大的傳統機構投資者和金融行業參與者,我並不完全認同安全代幣的概念,也區塊鏈使得他們對任何屬於區塊鏈的東西,任何與加密貨幣有關的東西都非常懷疑。然而,在這期間尤其是幾個月,我認為它們試圖抵消市場的影響是荒謬的,而且來自現任財務部門的興趣更大行業參與者、更多的高淨值人士、家族理財辦公室,以及[00:07:50]進入這一領域的科技公司。

Darren :我明白了,是的,我也要問你,因為我們就像從科維德和經濟衰退中恢復一樣。Covid是否有助於或惡化標記化的潜力?

Jason:是的,我認為這確實有助於加快人們對房地產標記化適應的興趣。所以我認為有兩個原因。囙此,首先,由於現時的經濟活動正在放緩,資產管理公司和投資者有更多的時間來探索新的投資管理管道,並具有更大的靈活性。其中一個選擇就是標記化。所以每個人都有更多的時間不去做交易,去尋找新的交易方式。更重要的是,我認為在經濟低迷時期,很多投資者都在尋找投資的退出選擇權,但由於某些投資的非流動性,比如,如果他們投資於私募股權基金房地產或房地產基金,他們的鎖定期很長,或者他們通常只能在基金期限結束時退出。囙此,現在他們正在尋找他們抵制的方法,他們可以很容易地退出並建立利益,未來的投資。組織無疑是更具吸引力的選擇之一。

Darren :我明白了。回到我剛才問過你的一個問題,你也有點掩飾了,對吧。你知道,你是怎麼說的,比如說,很多投資者還沒有看到它,很多球員都失踪了。所以不僅僅是今天,就像三、四樣東西不見了。那麼在你看來,現時標記化的生態系統如何?還缺什麼?為了讓一切發生,有什麼樣的當事人參與?

Jason:是的,所以我認為就現時而言,就像我提到的,房地產代幣化的生態系統基礎設施,它還處於早期階段,遠沒有像傳統的櫃檯那樣,像金融同行那樣,完全成熟。例如,在香港,還沒有一個由香港證券監管機构準予的監管機构或持牌資產交易平臺,囙此SMC。在新加坡,監管機构準予新加坡政府支持的傳統交易平臺。但一般來說,人們對發行安全代幣缺乏興趣。所以,我的意思是,就像在不同的司法管轄區,他們做不同的事情。而且我認為,和許多市場參與者一樣,仍然對這種相對較新的科技、管道或籌資方式有所升溫。就項目上市所涉及的各方而言,我的意思是,除此之外,我剛才提到的少數幾個人,如科技平臺律師、管理員、技術顧問和房地產估價師,我認為,當然,最重要的是投資者。囙此,投資者需要對房地產代幣的發行產生興趣,這是我的意思是,像錢是大多數企業的主要驅動力一樣,這是主要的驅動力。所以,是的,我覺得現在還沒找到。

Darren :我明白了。很明顯,所有這些都是正確的,你知道的,我們在香港的回報是什麼,你知道嗎知道,這裡有一個安全代幣。然後,有什麼項目在進行嗎?或者我們是否應該很快看到產品清單?

Jason:是的,所以在香港[00:11:30]我基本上會覆蓋香港和新加坡,因為我們最近發佈了一份涵蓋這兩個司法管轄區的報告。所以在香港,我們看到無論如何,代幣化和虛擬資產生態系統正試圖建立更多的市場,更多的市場參與者正在這個領域追隨我們。所以就監管環境而言,情况變得越來越明朗,因為證監會總體上給出了相當多的指導,而且他們一直在發放牌照致我管理加密貨幣和安全代幣的經理們,所以我們預計證監會很快,今年某個時候拿到他們的第一個虛擬資產交易平臺許可證,希望通過它,手指交叉,希望能使生態系統更加完整更歡迎希望標記化的資產所有者,因為最終,標記化的承諾是新增流動性,對。囙此,如果沒有交易平臺做廣告,投資者就不會安心進入代幣化市場。如果沒有投資者,正如我提到的,不會有資產所有者想要將資產標記化。所以最終,如果基礎設施建設在香港,有一個交易平臺,這將有很大幫助。在新加坡,正如我提到的,我們認為新加坡監管局MAS已經準予了兩家政府支持的證券代幣交易所。所以網絡在某種意義上比香港。也就是說,與香港相比,我們實際上看到新加坡在這個年齡段提供的安全代幣更少。有點奇怪。所以我我猜想,也許東南亞國家的市場參與者仍在為這種新的籌資方式熱身。那是說,因為政府正努力推動新加坡成為亞洲金融科技中心。我認為下一步我們肯定會看到更多的標記化項目12到18個月。在機會方面,我認為許多傳統金融機構仍在尋找機會標記化,但並沒有真正深入這個市場。所以我們看到了更多新的和更小的市場參與者誰將以此為契機,在整個行業進行試點,取得先行者優勢金融和房地產市場中更大的參與者。例如,通常有一些較小的項目為他們提供測試案例,以向投資者展示,哦,實際上,這是可行的,同時也讓他們弄清楚並理順所有的操作和在他們進入更大的市場並告訴所有現有的投資者之前,“嘿,就像我們有一個標記化項目,這是一個巨大的項目,你應該參與其中。”所以,我想這需要一些時間。而且就像所有人的都需要付出更多在這些項目能够真正擴大市場之前,投資於這些項目,而且對於所有市場來說,這將是一個非常陡峭的學習過程。

Darren :我明白了,對丹奇蒂來說,我們希望人們參與更多的房地產投資。所以當你談到這件事的時候,在我的腦海裏,我想,“我真的很希望這件事發生,因為這只需要一兩個人,比如律師和所有不同的監管機构,當結合在一起的時候,就可以實現這一點。”這就像一個社區,你知道,你必須向前推進。那麼,有了這些,對吧,投資者在真正進行標記化時應該記住哪些事情?

Jason:是啊,作為一名律師,我要談談規章制度,對吧。囙此,從監管的角度來看,毫無疑問,從全球範圍來看,就像圍繞標記化的監管制度一樣,現在非常困難,很難駕馭,尤其是對於金融行業的新參與者來說,如果他們來自科技背景的話。囙此,對於那些金融行業的人來說,他們通常更習慣於受到證券監管機构的監管,但對於科技行業的參與者來說,他們通常是自由的,想做什麼就做什麼。囙此,如果他們想以一種恰當的管道去做,並且他們想加入一些更大的金融機構,他們就必須在真正啟動一個項目之前,先瞭解證券相關的法規。囙此,作為一名律師,請尋求適當的法律和監管建議。撇開玩笑不談,是的,這實際上非常重要,因為我們確實看到證券監管機构對違規項目採取強制措施,特別是如果這些項目非常公開的話。所以在操作層面上,因為我們最近幫助了客戶並做了標記化項目。囙此,從經驗來看,由於區塊鏈和數位資產是在資產管理領域新引入的,囙此對於管理人、託管人、技術服務提供商等方服務提供者的責任和行業標準,沒有類似的既定標準或操作管道。囙此,根據我們的經驗,有些情况下,他們參與了標記化,而資產所有者或管理基金經理在最後一刻才發現,服務提供者實際上無法接受任何提議的安排。所以我們必須更改所有的檔案,我們必須找出所有的機制,這樣就沒有了標準,所以他們不知道在某種意義上要達到什麼標準。所以我的意思是,從邏輯上講,從操作的角度來看,我認為在做一個標記化項目時,這些服務提供者需要參與到標記化和檔案化的非常非常早期的階段。

Darren :我明白了。比如,在過去的兩年裏,有沒有像2019年、2020年這樣成功的案例?

Jason:是的。所以,我們在全球範圍內是幸運的,我們看到很多成功的案例組織。而且,它涵蓋了所有類型的資產,你認為你能想到的任何類型的資產,傳統上是非流動性的或大票的,比如藝術品,當然還有房地產、私募股權和其他外來資產類別或大宗商品。囙此,除了單個資產(例如,一塊土地或一件藝術品)的標記化之外,最近,我們實際上看到了對基金和國有基金的標記化的更多興趣,囙此我們最近幫助客戶推出了一個標記化的積極管理定量基金,它將加密貨幣作為資產類別之一。所以,如果你想瞭解更多細節,請聯繫我們,如果你感興趣,請告訴我們。所以,我的意思是,就這些項目規模而言,這些成功案例,我們知道,在這個階段通常有相對較小的。例如,它仍然有點像一種資產,一種很小的資產,很少有投資者,通常只是規模較小的籌資活動。項目通常由經理或資產所有者完成,作為聯系或溝通的證據。囙此,在他們繼續做更大的項目之前,他們應該弄清楚所有的運營和後勤方面的問題。

Darren :那麼什麼樣的房東或業主應該或者不應該參與房地產標記化。

Jason:好吧,對我來說,所有資產所有者至少應該考慮標記化,因為我們確實預計它會越來越流行。正如我所提到的,標記化有很多好處,投資者正在研究它。所以他們最終會,其中一些人最終會要求標記化作為他們投資術語的一部分。所以,如果你是一個房地產商,至少要知道它是什麼,然後把它放在腦後。因為萬一有人問你,哦,我們能不能把它標記化,因為我希望我的投資和未來的流動性,至少你知道它是什麼,你可以和相關的人談談,比如,我的書也是liquify。我的意思是,像資產所有者一樣,他們應該考慮如何構建標記化項目。囙此,無論是單項目單資產基金、多項目基金盲池,還是它們只是象徵性地將其股權或受益所有權或經濟利益作為一種收入來源。囙此,諸如房地產資產的哪些利益應該標記化,以及在進行標記化時,他們必須牢記其具體的業務運營和管理策略。囙此,如果您不想做出任何管理決策,那麼在標記化時,您應該將一些管理帳戶錯誤添加到您發行的權杖中。如果你想留住管理層,那麼也許你應該只把經濟利益象徵化。如果你還想保留所有權,那麼你也許只應該標記化收入流或標記化資產,而不是股權或經濟利益。

Darren :那很酷。這有很多事情需要消化。而且,你知道,我還在學習。所以,對於那些想參與房地產標記化的公司來說,他們需要什麼?

Jason:是的。所以我的意思是,正如我剛才提到的那些想參與房地產代幣化的人,因為這些代幣通常被視為大多數司法管轄區的證券,至少在大多數受歡迎的司法管轄區,他們必須遵守當地的證券法律法規。或許在這些司法管轄區,他們可能會有這種虛擬資產的特定規則和條例。囙此,舉例來說,在香港,如果美聯儲想行銷或分銷一種證券代幣,它就必須在香港證監會取得1類牌照,或者找到在證監會注册的1類牌照,並通知證監會。除持牌人外,他們亦須通知證監會辦事處發行證券代幣的計畫。比如說,如果你想成為一個虛擬的資產交易平臺,交易房地產的證券代幣,那麼證監會去年也對這些運營商發佈了許可條款和條件,該條例就證券代幣交易所在香港經營的資格及監管規定,均為香港人。囙此,對於資產管理而言,資產管理公司,即管理有虛擬資產敞口的基金的資產管理人,根據其對這些虛擬資產的敞口水准,他們可能還必須將此類投資通知證監會,並遵守相關虛擬資產管理人的具體條款和條件。所以基本上,作為一名律師,我們總是要提醒你要遵守法律,在你繼續從事一個項目之前,考慮一下監管問題。

Darren :不,好像,我覺得在過去,大概20分鐘,我不知道我們做了多長時間,也許20分鐘。就像大學裏的這節課,但它更有趣,更吸引人,還有很多有趣的東西。哦,是的,我有這種感覺,很明顯這就是我們希望整個Denzity insights頻道能做到的。這是因為人們可以有更具吸引力的學習同時,你是一個有資格這樣做的人。你知道,你不僅僅是網上的人。所以就我個人而言,對吧,我只是好奇地想知道更多,你是怎麼想的,對吧?你對學習整個行業有何感想?因為我不知道你做過什麼,你在什麼樣的領域,或者你以前在什麼行業。但是在瞭解了所有這些之後,你有什麼感覺?你對整個房地產市場的未來有什麼看法?

Jason:是的,所以我認為,因為對很多投資者來說,收益是非常明顯的,我認為很多大的參與者都在研究這個問題,他們中的一些人正在問我們監管框架,以及這些房地產STO的商業方面,所以我認為他們在做未來的項目時確實在考慮這個問題。考慮到所有的因素和經濟衰退,也許他們現在不會真正深入研究,但在未來,他們肯定會投入其中,我看到,一般來說,區塊鏈行業,許多較大的金融參與者正在進入遊戲,例如,形式,也像northern trust,他們正在進入虛擬資產託管業務。所以我的意思是,就像他們開始認真對待這件事一樣,我們確實看到很多機構投資者把虛擬資產視為一種可行的、也不可靠的資產類別,但他們認為這是未來資產類別中的一種,囙此我認為現在是開始學習房地產代幣化的好時機,因為它將變得流行,我想我也一樣對於機构和金融投資者的這種嚴肅的投資,我認為生態系統在未來會足够成熟。

Darren :有點酷。我是說,再次希望儘快。那麼,你希望觀眾對這段視頻有什麼樣的收穫?

Jason:是啊,所以我覺得五個主要的外賣有點多,但沒關係。囙此,首先,代幣化的優勢,包括降低投資的可變進入行為、運營效率、數據透明度以及最重要的流動性,這對投資者非常重要。第二點房地產組織的生態系統和基礎設施仍處於早期階段。因為它必須足够成熟,才能讓嚴肅的行業參與者加入。第三點,市場參與者正在為這一令人驚歎的新管道熱身,監管環境也越來越清晰,投資者正考慮將標記化作為一種有吸引力的潜在退出選擇。第四點是,由於傳統金融機構尚未涉足這一市場,新的和規模較小的市場參與者應考慮到這一機會,開拓該行業,獲得最佳先發優勢。最後,這是一次推銷。囙此,我們有一個代理第一代幣化基金,我們最近幫助一個客戶推出了一個代幣化的量化基金,投資於加密貨幣。如果你對標記化有任何疑問,請聯繫我們。

Darren :我的意思是,所有的東西都屬於那個外賣。但是,人們是如何找到你的,你會建議人們用什麼方法來接觸你並瞭解更多資訊呢?

Jason:是的。囙此,如果您有興趣瞭解更多有關房地產標記化、標記化的一般資訊,或者只是想看看我們如何幫助您完成標記化項目,您可以通過電子郵件聯系我:[email protected]網站.您也可以在我們與Liquify、Colliers和KPMG共同撰寫的一份報告中瞭解標記化的房地產標記化。我想我們可以在以後的某個地方給你一個連結。

Darren :是的,那很酷。很好。然後我覺得這就是整個採訪的內容,有很多事情我沒有消化,然後我只想感謝你的時間,因為你知道,這是我非常期待的事情,很高興有一個最新的進展。所以像你這樣有專業背景的人,只是想知道更多的事情發生了,這是一個令人興奮的時刻,它仍然是狂野的西部,你知道嗎?有點酷。

Jason:是的,是的。不管怎樣,邀請我參加。

Darren :我只想讓觀眾更多地瞭解外面的情况。是的,讓我們下次再試一次,非常感謝。也許下次我們可以做一個更長的表格。那太好了。

Jason:是的,當然。當然。謝謝非常感謝你。

Darren :謝謝。那就好好吃一頓吧。

Jason:謝謝。是啊,你也是。

Darren :再見。


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