Please enjoy this transcript of Building Cities with Ivan Ko, Chairman of RECAS.
Email: [email protected]
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ivan-ko-497b3938
Welcome to our very first Denzity Insights episode!
One of the key skills you need to have when it comes to real estate investing is to learn how to envision how a city develops over time. We are kickstarting the series with Ivan Ko, Chairman of RECAS. I had met him at a PropTech event in Hong Kong a few years ago. Since then, Ivan has been an advisor to me and has helped me mould what Denzity is today. In this episode, he describes how a real estate developer needs to do on a daily basis, how the audience can understand what it is like to be a real estate developer and why we need more real estate experts.
As it can be difficult to catch some minor errors, transcripts may contain a few typos or inaccuracies.
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Alright, let’s get back to the transcript of the show.
Darren Wong: Hey Ivan, thanks for coming in.
Ivan Ko: Hey, Darren, how are you?
Darren Wong: Very good. Very good. Today is a very exciting time for me because as I said before: the whole journey with Denzity started with you. So it’s something that I’ve been waiting for for a long time and then it’s just interesting to have this format to talk to you more about your experience, your whole career and even something that I know you want to tell all the audience about, the real estate sector.
Ivan Ko: Yeah, I think that’s very flattering to me that you said your journey started from me. And I think it’s good that I can have this chance to kind of not walk through with you, but at the same time, see you grow with your Denzity ideas and also get the fundraise and now get started. I think this is a big time.
Darren Wong: Oh, yeah. I hope so.
Ivan Ko: Even though Hong Kong is facing a very tough moment, I think we can all get over this, especially in the real estate market, I think. And in any case, Hong Kong’s real estate market is going to be as popular as it was. So I think you did the right thing, and I do hope that your Denzity can be a global platform instead of just Hong Kong.
Darren Wong: That’s a lot of—, that’s a lot of stress on me now. But then for the audience who don’t know who you are, would you mind telling the audience more about your background? And also what you do?
Ivan Ko: Oh, yeah, why not?
I started doing real estate in 1993. And I started in the real estate agency from Beijing. I did that for seven months and then I was headhunted by Beijing developers. Ever since then, I started doing real estate development. I started doing real estate right from the beginning in Beijing, not from Hong Kong, even though I was in Hong Kong at that time. And then subsequently, I was made a GM of a piece of real estate development company in Beijing and after the whole development—, and that was a big, big opportunity for me. I was young. I think I was only 30 or 32. So that was amazing. And at that time, I realized we were the first group of people doing development in Beijing from outside. So at that time, we had something high. We had been doing this not Soho, but then the previous one of Soho. And then, later on, I started to do real estate development also in Hong Kong with another listed company.
So that was the path that I did for almost five years: real estate development in Hong Kong and, and also Beijing. Then, later on, I moved on to set up my own real estate finance company, which is a mortgage company I set up in a joint venture with IFC, the World Bank, and Deutsche Bank. At the time, we were doing real estate mortgage, I mean, residential mortgage underwriting business in Beijing, and that was also very pioneering. We’ve been quiet for a few years, but we were preparing everything: the market, the industry and the standards for standard securitizations of mortgages. But even today the securitization law hasn’t come out yet. So basically, we then closed down the business and I moved on to do real estate fund management and things like that. So I have part of my career in real estate development and part of the longer part, the later part of it being real estate finance or real estate fund management. Later on, I set up a joint venture with Macquarie capital doing real estate funds management into Macau. So now yeah, that’s where I am.
Darren Wong: That’s a long list of things. And then I think that when I met you, you told me a lot more about what you’re doing afterward too and that’s amazing. So to keep them all in the background, right, so I met Ivan through a property tech event like three, four years ago in 2016 or 17’. And I was running around trying to figure it out about property tech and how to do the business. Ivan was the only guy that talked to me afterwards. He had really good questions to ask the panellists. And then, I was just like, now I want to learn more about him, and the more I knew about your background, I was like, holy crap. I was just a junior-level guy that met you and everything. I was like, “Wow, I was talking to one of the pioneers out there.” So it’s something that is interesting, right? Because you talk a lot about your history, how you first started, you know, how you transitioned slowly with different parties and stuff. If you’re thinking back, is there a history? Is there a time where you think that like, that’s the golden time or something that you’re excited about among everything you have done?
Ivan Ko: Oh, well, certainly. I think it was the best timing because in the year of 93’,
94’ it was just the beginning of foreigners being able to invest in real estate projects in China and via debt companies in China. They don’t have office buildings; they can only brand hotel properties, hotel rooms as their offices, can you imagine? And I still remember at that time when I completed my first pre-sale—, because that was just an empty piece of land and we had to draw and solve the building of the office, the oil and gas company came to us and they wanted to buy the whole floor. I was talking about just using these drawings to talk about how much the price is and that and then later on when we received the payment, they paid all cash. $20 million, we had to count the cash one by one.
Darren Wong: Wait, with like two suitcases, holding it and being like.
Ivan Ko: No, the whole room. The whole room was filled with renminbi notes.
Darren Wong: Really? Wow okay
Ivan Ko: And so that was very interesting. I still remember that I had to pretend that I didn’t want to sell the property to them. And they were so keen.
You know at that time I was responsible for marketing and sales. So that was the golden moment. Later on, when we moved to 97’, 98’, the Asian financial crisis, we had a bit of change in the market. Because previously it was the commercial market which was very, very in demand
in Beijing and in other cities in China and then in 98’, 99’ it shifted to residential. It slowly shifted to residential, because at that time people started to have their own savings; they have money and they want to buy their own properties instead of living in a quarter assigned by their
state enterprises. So then the whole market changed, and then the property market in mainland China just took off. So that was the real golden period for almost like 20-30 years.
Darren Wong: Mmhmm. So after all that, how do you lead back to Hong Kong then? Because like, obviously, you have a real estate development firm in Hong Kong, and others among other many projects you’re doing, how do you lead back to Hong Kong in the end?
Ivan Ko: Oh, well, in fact, I did five years in the Beijing real estate development company, and then I joined a listed company in Hong Kong. They both have a portfolio in Hong Kong and also a portfolio in mainland China. So I started doing real estate development in Hong Kong, even though I haven’t long stayed in mainland China for ten years, but I still flew to Beijing on a weekly basis for 10 years. Can you imagine?
Darren Wong: Wow, that’s crazy!
Ivan Ko: I was young. And so yeah, every Monday and Tuesday, I flew to Beijing. And then every Friday night I came back. So is very like I always told my friend’s dad I’m doing the Silk Road between Hong Kong and mainland China [laughs].
Darren Wong: [laughs]
Ivan Ko: Literally all the way back and forth every single week. That must be hectic! That’s I don’t know, like even for me once a month or once every two months I’m tired already. I don’t know how you do that every single week. That’s crazy.
Ivan Ko: Well, it was very enjoyable.
Darren Wong: Really? Oh good, that’s great then.
Ivan Ko: It was very enjoyable yeah. Because when you see the market, when you meet the people, when you know that—, at that time in the year of 94’, 95’, no one knew how to do real estate development in Beijing. We were the first one. And Sun Hung Kai people and Henderson land people, they were there. But also, everyone didn’t know how to do it, including the government officials in Beijing. They don’t know how to do it. So we had to think about how to do it. And then I told my colleagues, I have several Hong Kong colleagues working with me at the time and I told them that “Hey, let’s face this, no one knows how to play this game.” And every day we have to go up to the stage and fight with the contractor, the vendors, and a couple of officials.
Every day we are being punched, bleeding in the nose and then the next day we have to go up and fight again because no one knows how to do it. So finally, a year later, you will be very, very well versed with what’s going on and how to do it, how to talk to people, what will be prioritized and what should be back in the queue and so it’s very interesting. Very pioneering.
I feel very excited.
Darren Wong: That’s something that I want to talk to you about. This whole interview, because a lot of people don’t know what a real estate developer does. And frankly, these are the things in our industry that were like, even before I got into a real estate firm like holy crap, it was not that easy. There’s a lot of things to do and it’s something that I want to do more these kinds of videos and then, you know, for us, right, I think that we can have your whole journey, like a three to five hours video. So easily as something that I will focus on is more about your firm, what do you guys do and everything to give the audience a better picture?
So what’s a typical day for example right, today for you and your team in a real estate development firm?
Ivan Ko: Well, usually every single project, no matter big or small, every one of them, they have problems every day. You never know, sometime in the daytime, you hold your meetings with your colleagues and talk about this working procedure and the drawings, the
variation orders, (variation order is something that you have to amend the drawings, amend the work) and then carry on with the construction and then maybe in the afternoon, you have to meet with the contractor and then, later on, meet the supplier or these creditors and talk about the price and then, later on, you have to meet a government official or banker to talk about the mortgage financing. How are you going to provide a mortgage retail buyer? And then at the end of the night, you might end up with a client. Then you have to meet them because most of the time in real estate development in Beijing or Mainland China, government officials, bankers, vendors, contractors, clients, they all want to meet the general manager of the development company.
If they don’t meet you, they won’t take action. That’s the big difference between doing real estate development in mainland China and in Hong Kong. In Hong Kong, real estate development is very easy. You just call the consultant in and tell them what you want and discuss it with them. And then after the meeting, all the consultants just go to the government liaise with the government department and the government department does not have to see me. Not for one single meeting, no. They just deal with the AP, an architect, and surveyor and things get done.
It’s very comfortable doing real estate development in Hong Kong and the problems that you face, I mean, those are out of expectation problems. You don’t expect problems, like one day when we were doing the demolition in our site in Beijing on Finance Street, a contractor called us and said, “Oh, we have a problem here.” So then we went down to the site to see what the problem was. And it was an old lady sitting on the caterpillars machine. And she said that she doesn’t want to move so we called the police.
He said, “No one can ask her to move.” And then finally we gave her some money, and because she thought that we were disturbing her life. (She’s one of his neighbours. So we have to give her what we call 干扰费(ganrao fei) (interference) fee to compensate for the disturbance we have caused to her and her neighbours. So then she went away and we could carry on with our work.
So very interesting every day you have problems pop out and you never know what that problem will be. And that’s my development’s work.
Darren Wong: You make it sound like everything— my life is easy, it’s a lot easier. I thought it was hectic but sounds like you’ve done a lot more. A lot more real problems to deal with compared to me.
Ivan Ko: Well, real estate investment is very different. Real estate development is kind of like you have to be on top of the situation every day, and you have to expect anything you don’t expect.
Darren Wong: So this is something that’s interesting, right? Because as a developer, like I see as someone who’s at an early stage, they already see a long term of what’s going on because it’s risk is very high compared to like, my work before in real estate investing where I can be like, “hey, there’s 1000 projects out there. I don’t have to be the early stage,” versus the developer, they take a lot of risk and obviously the reward compensates for everything else.
So back in the day, right, like, obviously, Beijing or Hong Kong, you know, it’s very easy to see now, but back in the day, obviously, they aren’t as developed. So how do you assess and compare different projects when you’re bidding and stuff like that?
Ivan Ko: Well, we have to always look at where in China, you have to first of all, look at which city, because some cities have a rare, very good market depth. For some of them they don’t. Like Beijing is very good. Shanghai is very good. But when you go to 大朗 (Dalang), or 沉阳 (Shenyang), it’s very different. And the culture, the way they do it, their local practices can be very different. So you have to first of all, understand which city you are focusing on and then whether the market is deep enough, and then how will the government do and whether they are credible or not. And whether you have the relationship there.
As you know, in China doing business in China, you always have to have a good relationship; it’s what they call 关系 (guanxi). Yeah, and or you have a good local partner. So those are the few things. Certainly the normal things here are location, location, location, and market study, things like that. Those are normal, normal things.
Darren Wong: Because I found from hearing it right, even though obviously, the audience are not all with the developers, but then if I’m an investor too, there is some takeaway right away. My head was like, “Hey, you got to understand which city you want to go for.
What’s going on? Who do you know? Do the local players actually understand the culture and opportunities and do you, working with them, actually rely on them to work together as a team?”
So I even find from viewing the audience, they might not be a developer who does stuff, but I think the audience would hopefully learn from that. And for people who are not in the sector, right, how would you explain to them how to understand, to envision that community development, because I think as a developer, you have to really envision what kind of space; how people interact with the space, what kind of things would happen around the neighborhood? So I want to know what you think about that.
Ivan Ko: For this, that’s very important because it goes along with the first decision. The first decision in real estate development is the most important decision. It’s to buy the land. Which land does one want to buy, and why does one want to buy it? And if that decision was right then everything subsequently will be easy. If the first decision was wrong because you bought the wrong piece of land, no matter how hard working you are, or what remedial measures you take, you’re not going to correct the wrong decision you made in the first place. So, basically, you will have to look at the environment, the neighbourhood, and also all kinds of these building regulations or planning regulations associated with the land.
You will have to imagine, because during the time when you buy the land, it may be an old house or have old properties sitting on land where you have to imagine the future. How are you going to put a beautiful building there and have it be welcomed by your neighborhood, or people that you want. And so the next thing is you have to imagine what you want to do
with this piece of land. So you have to talk with the architect, and talk with several architects, not just one, because one architect can give you some ideas, because architects are very creative. They have done a lot of different projects at the same time so they might be able to give you some ideas of what others are doing, what is the trend, and how you can save money, these kinds of things. So talk to the architect, talk to surveyors, and maybe talk to your competitors. Competitors would also like to tell you their story because they are not doing the same project as you are and because everybody is unique within a location. No two projects are the same, even though they might be neighbored to each other.
So basically, you can have a lot of information coming to you and then you get the feedback to examine this and that. And then finally you come up with what we call the “positioning of your property.” What do you want to build? What’s the image that you want to give? And then what design you want to have. For example, would the composition of the commercial element be together with the residential element, or how would we want the traffic to flow, that sort of thing.
Sometimes you don’t have the ideas so then you have the architect propose them to you as a developer. So as a developer, being the main core of the value chain, you have a lot of people helping.
Darren Wong: Mmhmm. That’s good. I think that’s kind of exciting. Thinking about that in my head, like how things are working. And, you know, it’s a lot of things that have components combined together, that is hard to explain. So this is kind of good to give us like an overview. So from all those experiences and a skill you have learned, for example, envisioning the future over the years in the real estate market right, you started from Beijing and Hong Kong and I know there have been other places as well. How do you transfer those skills to other places? Are there any similarities within places like work differences, when you go to different areas to focus on different types of people, and therefore different groups of experts and so on?
Ivan Ko: Well, once you acquire the method and you have done the full cycle then you know how to do it in other countries or another place. Basically, the methodologies are the same, but then in different markets you prioritize different things. For example, in certain markets you prioritize relationships first. Whether you can find the right partner, the right banks, or the agents that will help you, and then in other markets, you start with the asset first. Meaning that you have to find the right piece of land first. And that’s not the rest of it. So if you have different markets, you have different priorities. The second thing is whether you will be able to put together a capable team to help you, that is also very important. Otherwise you wouldn’t be running around resolving problems, which is very difficult. And so, basically, I think, once you have gone through the whole cycle, you know, if there is a project in London or New York or in Japan, Tokyo, you know the way. Sometimes we use top down, that means the analytics goes from the top, macro view and then the micro, and then down to the site and then the neighborhood. Other times we go from the top up. So it all depends on the market.
Darren Wong: I see. I think that so far I’m getting like a crash course about real estate development. That’s actually pretty interesting. And I only have because I know you’re busy only a couple more questions because something that even in my head, I have to ask you in this format for the audience, right? That’s, you know, I’m sure I said before no audience is going to be a real estate developer, they would be an investor. So what kind of tips and advice would you give to the audience who wants to participate in early stage real estate projects for example, early stage that maybe is you know, like half a year from a CA and stuff like that. What kind of advice do you have for them?
Ivan Ko: Well, always you’ll have to use your eye to see what the property or what the project is. Never do it on paper. Never believe in paperwork because real estate is something that you have to visit the site yourself. Do it many times: daytime, nighttime, in the morning, you’ll find different stories about the neighborhood, about the environment. Maybe you can talk to the neighbors, see what feedback you will get. Sometimes you hear some very old stories, which might be relevant to you.
And sometimes some people might be able to tell you what will happen in the neighborhood in the future. So you’ll have to be almost treating it as your new baby that you’re going to see him or her, every moment when you are free or even when you are not free you still have to look at it and check out this and that. So doing real estate development or real estate investment is different from doing securities or buying bonds, that sort of thing. For those kinds of financial investments, you can do it on paper. But doing real estate investments and development, especially development, you will have to do it on your own by yourself in person. Don’t rely on paperworks. You’ll have to see the real thing, that real situation, the environment. And then the second thing is always be prepared to roll your sleeves and do whatever it requires you to.
Never be afraid of talking to the contractor or delegate everything to your subordinate to deal with the property agents. Get to the frontline; get the feeling; get the touch, know the details. Sometimes you might have to use your street wisdom. So yeah, a lot of things to learn and no matter how many years in real estate development you have been in, you’ll always learn something new, something you don’t know. So every day you prepare to learn something, or to get to know something that you are not aware of, or you don’t know. So this is very interesting because consumer behavior is always changing. And you have to get a very close touch of what’s going on in the consumer, in your talents, in your target audience. And then at the same time, product design, the building design, it’s always evolving. The use of materials, the space planning, the flow, the mood, that sort of thing. It’s very exciting and I would advise anyone who is always curious, keen to learn and willing to learn, hard working, go into real estate development. This is the most interesting industry, among all others.
Darren Wong: I can feel a lot of passion when I hear you talk about your work. It sounds like, you know, because we’re in the same industry, we know how hard it is, but then it’s very rare to find someone like you that still has so much passion for doing this for so so many years. So that’s something that is very, very good to hear from you. So something that is interesting when you mention about being at the neighborhood, at the site, like you know, how we’re interested in proptech ourselves. So do you think technology such as virtual viewing or drones to check out a neighborhood can help investors understand the investment better, and how far do you think technology is from like, mature so far?
Ivan Ko: Well, I think the technology that is available can help a lot in real estate development because we don’t necessarily need to go to the site. We can fly the drone and look at the progress. I remember when I was doing the peace project in Beijing, we had to rent an office close by so that we could look out from the window and see the progress of the project every day.
So that is one way. It’s very physical, but now, you don’t have to do that. You can have some CCTV or IoT to see what’s going on and check. But at the same time, I think the basic element is the same: that you have to do your own investigation, your due diligence, by site visit by talking to the neighborhood, by talking to the elderly nearby to learn about the old story and things like that. And so basically, technology will help a lot, especially when we have this building information modelling (BIM), which tracks all the changes in design and budget. They are surveyor calculators. And once the architect changes the M&E, fields of quantity can change by themselves. So, these kinds of things can help make the whole process more efficient.
So technology I think does play a major part in the whole process, but, I will say putting technology into construction and real estate development is also a challenge because this is a very old industry. So as human beings who previously lived in caves, we now have our own buildings. At the same time, the practices, the cultures, it can be difficult to change. So putting in technology into a construction site, or a real estate project can be quite challenging and you have to prepare to kind of educate them and also get them on board to agree with the use.
Darren Wong: I mean, that’s why we’re here, right? We’re trying to figure this out in Denzity, obviously trying to figure out the whole research part of learning what’s going on out there. So I think this is something that echoes really strongly with what we believe in. So besides BIM, virtual viewing and stuff, like drones, what other technology and property tech, or construction tech that you know or think is gonna impact a lot for the whole real estate industry?
Ivan Ko: Well, most of the time it’s the IoT or the surveillance systems, the facial recognition for property management. Also, robotics being used on construction sites for dangerous, or some very difficult work, where the human cannot get into. So those robotics can be another one. I always imagined that one day we can have a robot to clean the curtain wall. Because cleaning the curtain wall is so dangerous. And if we can have a robot, which can play music or dance while he is cleaning the curtain wall, then people can look at the building and see all this is very interesting. So this kind of thing, I think it will change and it will kind of get to more common use.
Darren Wong: I see. I think that’d be a really good PR actually for you know to drive presale, right? That’ll be a cool kind of scheme. So that’s kind of cool. So I think I said before I know you’re a busy person. I’ve got one last question I have to ask, you know, for myself one day, like compared to today, it’s a lot harder. Is it a lot harder to be a developer and would you recommend people considering to be a developer or would you rather them try different aspects of the real estate sector?
Ivan Ko: I would say being, I mean, joining a developer is the most crucial part of this whole value chain, because as a fund manager, even though they are at the top of this betting chain, they are not the organizer. The only major organizer is the developer, because they have to organize a lot of different resources: the land, the people, the bank, the consumer, the contractors, government officials. They have to deal with many things. So they organize all these together, and then they kind of divide the risks into a different section, and shifts the risk from their own to other parties; each one takes on certain risks, like the architect, the contractor, and then the banker, they bear different risks in the whole development. So once you’ve done the full cycle, then you can comfortably move on to other positions like a fund manager, property agency, whatever, because now you understand the whole thing, and you can move on to set up your own business like a prop tech, density, etc,. Yeah I’d say it’s a very good learning curve.
The developer’s life is very interesting. You bump into different problems or different issues every day. So it’s good.
Darren Wong: Yeah, like I think that because you and I, we both know a couple people that aren’t in the real estate industry trying to get into prop tech. And for me, it’s like their learning curve is so much because real estate is not only about tech it’s about the people, about the industry, it’s about the whole machine in the world, and how can you make that one piece that makes everything works? So it’s something that echoes hard too because if I were if I weren’t working in the real estate fund, there’s no way I would even think of Denzity. There’s no way I would even consider that as an option. So something that you know, like it’s coming from you is something that is kind of interesting. So what kind of—, last thing I have, what kind of takeaway do you want the audience to have from this interview?
Ivan Ko: I think that if you have not joined the real estate industry, please join it. It is a very big industry. The value chain and the things that you can do is numerous. I mean, it’s unlimited. And I will say the real estate industry, the longer you stay in the industry, the more projects you’ve done, the better you are. Not like IT where 15 year old students can beat a senior guy and experience doesn’t come too much. But in real estate, the longer you stay, the more experienced you are, it’s better. Especially now when people might live to the age of 120. So, the healthier you are the better but at the same time, I think be prepared to learn things, because the industry is also changing. And so I think the real estate industry, get into it. If you can become an employee of a developer, then yeah, join it. That’s the best start of your career.
Darren Wong: Hmm. I feel like this is not only for development, it’s for investment too, because a lot of people like management, it’s a very big whole sector that the more you’re in you just know more and more because I know a lot of people too, they’ll tell me that like “Oh my first real estate investment wasn’t great at all.” But the more I do it, I know what I want, the more I know what to do. So it’s something that I think is so unique in this industry because the more you know, you know that there’s so much more out there and you just want to be a sponge and learn more and more. So it’s something that I think the audience will appreciate. And if people want to reach out to you to learn more about your work, how would we suggest they find you?
Ivan Ko: Oh well, they can find me through Denzity. Yeah, or they can email me or WhatsApp me. I welcome all kinds of content or connections, especially if you are interested in real estate industry or development, real estate fund management, I can offer some advice or help or whatever it is, I think this industry needs a lot of good people, talented people, and people who are keen to make a successful career.
Darren Wong: I see that’s good. I’ll obviously after this call, I’ll ask you some kind of links and stuff like that for people to reach out to you. And I’ll put everything in the show notes. And then I want to say, Ivan, I think that I want to do a long form in the future, to dive in your journey, because I’m sure there’s a lot more of your stories that you haven’t told me and the audience yet. So something that I really want to know personally, as well. And thanks for the time. I really appreciate it. And I just hope that you come on board next time again for our interview.
Ivan Ko: Yeah, Yeah my pleasure. And also, thanks, Darren, and I think you have a good start.
Darren Wong: Thank you.
Ivan Ko: Let’s roll it out. And make this successful.
Darren Wong]: Yeah, I hope so too. It’s been a while. So thanks, thanks a lot and talk to you next time then, thank you.
Ivan Ko: Okay, thanks. Bye bye.
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Darren Wong：嘿，Ivan，謝謝您的光臨。
Ivan Ko：嘿，Darren，你好嗎？
Darren Wong：非常好。很好。今天對我來說是一個非常激動人心的時刻，因為正如我之前所說的，與Denzity的整個旅程始於您。因此，這是我等待了很長時間的事情，然後有趣的是，有這種形成性的想法，可以與您更多地交流您的經驗，您的整個職業生涯，甚至我想告訴所有聽眾，房地產行業。
Ivan Ko：是的，我認為您說自己的旅程是從我開始的，這對我來說很受寵若驚。而且我認為我可以有機會不跟您一起走，這是很好的，但與此同時，看到您隨著您的Denzity想法而成長，並獲得籌款，現在就開始吧。我認為這是一個重要時刻。
Darren Wong：哦，是的。但願如此。
Ivan Ko：儘管香港面臨一個非常艱難的時刻，但我認為我們都可以克服這一困難，特別是在房地產市場。無論如何，香港的房地產市場將一如既往地受歡迎。因此，我認為您做對了，我希望您的Denzity可以成為一個全球性平台，而不僅僅是香港。
Darren Wong：這很多–現在我承受的壓力很大。但是對於那些不知道您是誰的聽眾，您是否願意告訴聽眾更多關於您的背景的信息？還有你做什麼？
Ivan Ko：哦，是的，為什麼不呢？
我從1993年開始從事房地產業務。後來，我從北京進入房地產經紀公司。我做了七個月，然後被北京的開發商獵頭。從那時起，我開始從事房地產開發。我從一開始就在北京而不是從香港開始從事房地產業務，儘管當時我在香港。然後，在整個開發過程中，我成為了北京一家房地產開發公司的總經理，這對我來說是一個巨大的機遇。我曾經年輕。我想我只有30或32歲。所以真是太神奇了。那時，我意識到我們是第一批從外面在北京從事開發工作的人。所以那個時候，我們有很高的期望。我們不是在做Soho，而是在之前的Soho。之後，我又開始與另一家上市公司在香港進行房地產開發。
這就是我將近五年的路：香港，北京的房地產開發。之後，我繼續建立自己的房地產金融公司，這是我與國際金融公司，世界銀行和德意志銀行合資成立的抵押公司。當時，我們在北京從事房地產抵押貸款業務，這也是非常開創性的。我們已經安靜了幾年了，但是我們正在準備一切：市場，行業和抵押貸款標准證券化的標準。但是直到今天，證券化法律仍未出台。所以基本上，我們然後關閉了業務，然後我繼續進行房地產基金管理之類的事情。因此，我的職業生涯是房地產開發，一部分時間較長，而後半部分是房地產金融或房地產基金管理。後來，我與麥格理資本成立了一家合資企業，從事進入澳門的房地產基金管理。所以現在是的，那就是我的位置。
Darren Wong：這是一長串的事情。然後我想，當我遇見你時，你也告訴了我很多關於你事後的事情，這真是令人驚訝。因此，為了讓所有人都能了解背景，沒錯，所以我在三，四年前的2016年或17歲的房地產技術會議上認識了Ivan。我四處奔波，試圖弄清楚有關房地產技術以及如何開展業務的知識。之後，Ivan是唯一與我交談的人。他有很好的問題要問小組成員。我就像，現在，我想學習更多，對你的背景了解得更多，就像是胡扯。我只是一個初中生，遇到了您和所有內容。我當時想，“哇，我正在和一位先驅在談話。”所以這很有趣，對嗎？因為您經常談論自己的歷史，所以您是如何開始的，知道如何與不同的政黨和事物慢慢過渡。如果您回想一下，是否有歷史？您是否有一段時間覺得這是黃金時期或您對所做的一切感到興奮的事情？
Ivan Ko：哦，當然。我認為這是最佳時機，因為在93年，
94’只是外國人能夠在中國房地產項目和通過中國債務公司投資的開始。他們沒有辦公樓。他們只能將酒店物業，酒店房間作為辦公室品牌，您能想像嗎？我還記得當時我完成了第一次預售的時候，因為那隻是一塊空地，我們不得不繪製和解決辦公室的建築，石油和天然氣公司來找我們，他們想買整個地板。我只是在談論使用這些圖紙來談論價格是多少，然後當我們收到付款時，他們支付了所有現金。2,000萬美元，我們必須一一計算現金。
Darren Wong：像兩個手提箱一樣[舉起手臂]，握著它，就像[放下手]。
Ivan Ko：不，整個房間。整個房間裡滿是人民幣紙幣。
Darren Wong：真的嗎？哇好
Ivan Ko：所以這很有趣。我仍然記得我不得不假裝自己不想將房產賣給他們。而且他們很乾淨。您知道當時我負責市場營銷和銷售。這就是黃金時刻。後來，當我們轉移到亞洲金融危機的97’，98’時，我們的市場發生了一些變化。因為以前是非常需求的商業市場在北京和中國其他城市，然後在98英尺，99英尺處轉移到居住區。它慢慢地轉移到了住宅上，因為那時人們開始有了自己的積蓄。他們有錢，他們想購買自己的財產，而不是住在他們分配的四分之一
國有企業。因此整個市場發生了變化，然後中國大陸的房地產市場開始騰飛。所以那是差不多20至30年的真正黃金時期。
Darren Wong：嗯。那麼，畢竟，您如何回到香港？因為，顯然，您在香港有一家房地產開發公司，而您正在執行的其他眾多項目中，您到底如何返回香港？
Ivan Ko：哦，事實上，我在北京房地產開發公司工作了五年，然後加入了香港的一家上市公司。他們在香港和中國大陸都有投資組合。因此，即使我已經在中國大陸待了很長時間了，但我還是開始在香港從事房地產開發工作，但我仍然每週10天都飛往北京。你可以想像？
Darren Wong：哇，這太瘋狂了！
Ivan Ko：我還年輕。是的，每個星期一和星期二，我都會飛往北京。然後每個星期五晚上我回來。就像我一直告訴我朋友的父親，我正在做一條介於香港和中國大陸之間的絲綢之路[笑]。
Darren Wong：：[笑]
Ivan Ko：從字面上看，每週一次。那一定很忙！那是我不知道的，就像每個月一次或每兩個月一次對我來說，我已經累了。我不知道你每星期怎麼做。太瘋狂了。
Ivan Ko：嗯，這非常愉快。
Darren Wong：真的嗎？噢，那太好了。
Ivan Ko：是的，非常愉快。因為當您看到市場時，當您遇見人們時，當您知道時–在94年，95年的那一年，沒有人知道如何在北京進行房地產開發。我們是第一個。在亨德森的一些香港人沒有土地。而且，每個人都不知道該怎麼做，包括北京的政府官員。他們不知道該怎麼做。所以我們必須考慮如何做。然後我告訴罪犯，當時我有幾位香港同事與我一起工作，我告訴他們：“嘿，讓我們面對現實，沒人會玩這個遊戲。”每天，我們必須走上舞台，與承包商，供應商和幾個官員打架。
每天我們都受到重創，鼻子流血，然後第二天，我們不得不上去再次戰鬥，因為沒人知道怎麼做。所以，最後，一年後，您將非常了解發生的事情，如何做，如何與人交談，將要優先處理的事情以及應該排在隊列中的內容，因此這非常有趣。非常開拓。
我感到非常興奮。
Darren Wong：我想和您談談這一點。整個採訪，因為很多人不知道房地產開發商的工作。坦率地說，這就是我們行業中的事情，甚至在我進入像垃圾一樣的房地產公司之前，難道不是那麼容易嗎？有很多事情要做，我想通過這些視頻來做更多的事情，然後，對於我們來說，對，我認為我們可以像三到五個小時的視頻一樣完成您的整個旅程。我要重點關注的事情很輕鬆，那就是更多關於您的公司，你們的工作以及所有可以給聽眾帶來更好印象的事情。
那麼今天對於您和您的團隊在房地產開發公司來說是典型的一天。
Ivan Ko：嗯，通常每個項目，無論大小，每個項目每天都有問題。您永遠不會知道，在白天的某個時間，您會與同事舉行會議並談論此工作程序和圖紙，
變更單，（變更單是您必須修改圖紙，修改工程的內容），然後繼續進行施工，然後也許在下午，您必須與承包商會面，然後再與供應商會面或債權人並討論價格，然後您必須與政府官員或銀行家見面談論抵押融資。您將如何提供抵押零售買家。然後在深夜，您可能會遇到一個客戶。然後，您必須與他們會面，因為在北京或中國大陸的房地產開發中，大多數時候，政府官員，銀行家，賣方，承包商，客戶，他們都想見見開發公司的總經理。
如果他們不認識你，他們將不會採取行動。這是在中國大陸和香港進行房地產開發的最大區別。在香港，房地產開發非常容易。您只需致電顧問，告訴他們您想要什麼並與他們討論。會議結束後，所有顧問都隨便向政府部門請教政府，政府部門不必見我。不是一次會議，不是。他們只是與AP，建築師和測量師打交道，事情就完成了。
在香港進行房地產開發非常舒適，您遇到的問題（我的意思是，這些問題超出了預期）。您不會遇到問題，例如有一天我們在北京金融街的工地進行拆遷時，一個承包商打電話給我們，說：“哦，我們這裡有問題。”因此，我們去了現場查看問題所在。那是一個坐在毛毛蟲機器上的老太太。她說她不想搬家，所以我們打電話給警察。
他說：“沒有人可以要求她移動。”最後我們給了她一些錢，因為她認為我們正在打擾她的生活。（她是他的鄰居之一。因此，我們必須給她提供我們所謂的干擾費（ganrao fei），以補償我們對她和她的鄰居造成的干擾。於是她走了，我們可以繼續進行下去。
每天都很有趣，您會遇到很多問題，而您永遠都不知道問題會是什麼。這就是我的發展工作。
Darren Wong：您的聲音聽起來就像我的一切—我的生活很輕鬆，很容易。我以為這很忙，但聽起來您做得還很多。與我相比，還有很多實際問題需要解決。
Ivan Ko：嗯，房地產投資是非常不同的。房地產開發有點像您必須每天掌握最重要的情況，並且您必須期望您沒有想到的任何事情。
Darren Wong：這很有趣，對嗎？因為作為開發人員，就像我所處的早期階段一樣，他們已經看到了正在發生的事情的長期情況，因為與我之前從事房地產投資的工作相比，風險很高，例如：嘿，那裡有1000個項目。我不必早於開發階段。”與開發人員相比，他們承擔著很大的風險，顯然，獎勵可以彌補其他所有問題。
所以回想起來，很明顯，就像北京或香港一樣，現在很容易看到，但是回想起來，它們顯然不那麼發達。那麼，當您競標之類的東西時，您如何評估和比較不同的項目呢？
Ivan Ko：好吧，我們必須始終關注中國的哪個地方，首先必須關注哪個城市，因為有些城市的市場深度非常罕見。對於其中一些人而言，他們不是。像北京很好。上海很好。但是，當您去大朗（Dalang）或沉陽（Shenyang）時，情況就大不一樣了。而且文化，他們做事的方式，他們當地的做法可能大不相同。因此，您必須首先了解您所關注的城市，然後了解市場是否足夠深，然後了解政府將如何做以及它們是否可信。以及您是否在那兒有關係。
如您所知，在中國做生意在中國，您總是必須保持良好的關係；這就是他們所說的“關係”。是的，或者您有一個很好的本地夥伴。這些就是幾件事。當然，這裡的正常情況是位置，位置，位置和市場研究等。那些是正常的，正常的事情。
Darren Wong：因為我從正確的聽覺中發現，儘管很明顯，聽眾並不都與開發人員在一起，但是如果我也是投資者，那麼馬上就會有收穫。我的腦袋就像：“嘿，你必須了解你想去的城市。
這是怎麼回事？你認識誰當地球員真的了解文化和機會嗎，您與他們合作，是否真的依靠他們作為一個團隊共同努力？”
因此，我什至從觀眾的視野中發現，他們可能不是做事的開發人員，但我認為觀眾有望從中學到東西。對於不在該領域的人來說，是的，您將如何向他們解釋如何理解，以設想社區發展，因為我認為作為開發人員，您必須真正設想什麼樣的空間；人們如何與空間互動，附近會發生什麼事情？所以我想知道您對此有何看法。
Ivan Ko：這很重要，因為它與第一個決定一起進行。房地產開發的首要決定是最重要的決定。是要買土地。一個人要買哪一塊土地，為什麼要買？如果這個決定是正確的，那麼隨後的一切將變得容易。如果由於購買了錯誤的土地而做出的第一項決定是錯誤的，那麼無論您的工作多麼努力或採取的補救措施是什麼，您都不會糾正最初做出的錯誤決定。因此，基本上，您將必須查看環境，周圍環境以及與土地相關的所有這些建築法規或規劃法規。
您將不得不想像，因為在您購買土地的過程中，它可能是一棟舊房子，或者在您必須想像未來的土地上坐著一些舊財產。您打算如何在其上放置一幢美麗的建築，並受到鄰里或想要的人的歡迎。因此，接下來的一件事就是您必須想像自己想做什麼
與這片土地。因此，您必須與建築師交談，並與數位建築師交談，而不僅僅是一位建築師，因為一位建築師可以給您一些想法，因為建築師很有創造力。他們同時完成了許多不同的項目，因此他們可能會給您一些有關其他人正在做什麼，趨勢是什麼以及如何省錢的想法。因此，請與建築師交談，與測量師交談，或者與您的競爭對手交談。競爭對手也想告訴您他們的故事，因為他們沒有像您一樣做同樣的項目，並且每個人在一個地點都是唯一的。即使兩個項目可能彼此相鄰，也沒有相同的項目。
因此，基本上，您會收到很多信息，然後您將獲得反饋來檢查這一點。最後，您提出了我們所謂的“您的財產位置”。您要建造什麼？您要給的形像是什麼？然後您想要擁有什麼設計。例如，諸如此類的事情是將商業元素與住宅元素組合在一起，還是我們希望交通如何流動。
有時您沒有創意，於是讓架構師將它們作為開發人員推薦給您。因此，作為開發人員，作為價值鏈的主要核心，您需要很多人的幫助。
Darren Wong：嗯。非常好。我認為這很令人興奮。想著這件事，就像事情是如何進行的。而且，您知道，很多東西將組件組合在一起，這很難解釋。因此，這給我們提供了一個概覽。因此，從您所學到的所有經驗和技巧中，例如，展望房地產市場多年的未來，您是從北京和香港開始的，我知道還有其他地方。您如何將這些技能轉移到其他地方？當您去不同的領域專注於不同類型的人，從而導致不同的專家組等等時，工作差異之類的地方是否存在相似之處？
Ivan Ko：嗯，一旦您掌握了該方法並且完成了整個週期，您就會知道如何在其他國家或其他地方進行此操作。基本上，方法是相同的，但是在不同的市場中，您會優先考慮不同的事情。例如，在某些市場中，您首先要優先考慮關係。無論您是找到合適的合作夥伴，合適的銀行，還是可以為您提供幫助的代理商，然後在其他市場中，都首先要從資產開始。這意味著您必須首先找到合適的土地。這還不是全部。因此，如果您擁有不同的市場，那麼您將擁有不同的優先級。第二件事是您是否能夠組建一支有能力的團隊來幫助您，這也很重要。否則，您將無法解決問題，這非常困難。因此，基本上，我認為，一旦您經歷了整個週期，便知道，如果在倫敦，紐約或日本，東京有項目，您就會知道。有時，我們使用自上而下的方法，這意味著分析從頂部，宏觀視圖，微觀視圖開始，然後再到站點再到附近。其他時候我們從頭開始。因此，這完全取決於市場。
Darren Wong：我知道。我認為，到目前為止，我正在獲得有關房地產開發的速成課程。這實際上很有趣。我只是因為我知道您僅在忙幾個問題，因為即使在我腦海中，我也必須以這種格式向聽眾問你，對嗎？那就是，你知道，我確定我說過，在沒有任何觀眾成為房地產開發商之前，他們將成為投資者。因此，您會向想要參與早期房地產項目的聽眾提供什麼樣的提示和建議，例如，您可能知道的早期階段，例如從CA獲得半年的服務，以及諸如此類的事情。您對他們有什麼建議？
Ivan Ko：好吧，總是需要用眼睛觀察什麼是財產或項目是什麼。切勿在紙上做。永遠不要相信文書工作，因為房地產是您必須自己訪問該站點的東西。要做很多次：白天，晚上，早晨，您會發現有關社區和環境的不同故事。也許您可以與鄰居交談，看看您會得到什麼反饋。有時您會聽到一些非常古老的故事，可能與您有關。
有時有些人也許可以告訴您將來在附近發生的事情。因此，您幾乎必須將其視為要與他或她見面的新嬰兒，每當您有空或什至沒有空時，您仍然必須查看一下並檢查一下，那。因此，進行房地產開發或房地產投資與進行證券或購買債券不同。對於這類金融投資，您可以在紙上進行。但是，在進行房地產投資和開發（尤其是開發）時，您必須親自親自完成。不要依賴文書工作。您將必須看到真實的事物，真實的情況和環境。然後，第二件事總是準備好捲起袖子，做任何您需要做的事情。
不用擔心與承包商交談或將一切委託給您的支持以與房地產經紀人打交道。到達第一線；體會到那種感覺;得到聯繫，了解細節。有時您可能不得不運用街頭智慧。所以，是的，有很多東西要學，無論您從事房地產開發工作了多少年，都將永遠學習新的東西，這是未知的。因此，每天您都準備學習一些東西，或者去了解一些您不知道或不知道的東西。因此，這很有趣，因為消費者行為總是在變化。而且，您必須非常了解消費者，人才和目標受眾的情況。同時，產品設計，建築設計也在不斷發展。材料的使用，空間規劃，流程，氣氛等等。這是非常令人興奮的，我會向那些總是好奇，熱衷於學習，願意學習，努力工作，從事房地產開發的人提供建議。這是最有趣的行業。
Darren Wong：當我聽到您談論您的工作時，我會感到非常的熱情。您知道，這聽起來像是因為我們處於同一個行業，所以我們知道自己有多艱辛，但是很難找到像您這樣的人這麼多年仍然對此充滿熱情的人。因此，您的來信真是太好了。因此，當您提到在附近，在現場時，就像您知道的那樣，我們感興趣的是我們對道具技術的興趣。那麼，您認為虛擬觀看或無人機等技術可以幫助投資者更好地了解投資嗎？您認為技術到目前為止已經成熟了多少？
Ivan Ko：好吧，我認為可用的技術可以對房地產開發有很大幫助，因為我們不一定要去現場。我們可以飛無人機，看看進度。我記得當我在北京進行和平項目時，我們不得不在附近租一個辦公室，這樣我們才能從窗戶向外看，每天都能看到該項目的進展。
這是一種方法。這是非常物理的，但是現在，您不必這樣做。您可以使用一些CCTV或IoT來查看發生的情況並進行檢查。但同時，我認為基本要素是相同的：您必須進行自己的調查，盡職調查，通過與鄰里交談的實地考察，與附近的老人交談以了解舊的故事和像這樣的東西。因此，基本上，技術將有很大幫助，尤其是當我們擁有此建築信息模型（BIM）來跟踪設計和預算的所有變化時。他們是驗船師計算器。並且，一旦架構師更改了M＆E，則數量字段可以自行更改。因此，這些事情可以幫助提高整個過程的效率。
因此，我認為技術確實在整個過程中起著重要作用，但是，我想說將技術應用於建築和房地產開發也是一項挑戰，因為這是一個非常古老的行業。因此，作為以前居住在山洞中的人類，我們現在擁有自己的建築物。同時，實踐，文化可能很難改變。因此，將技術應用於建築工地或房地產項目可能會非常具有挑戰性，因此您必須準備對它們進行某種程度的教育，並讓他們接受其使用才能達成共識。
Darren Wong：我的意思是，這就是為什麼我們在這裡，對吧？我們試圖在Denzity中解決這個問題，顯然是想弄清楚整個研究部分，以了解正在發生的事情。因此，我認為這確實與我們的信念很相呼應。因此，除了BIM之外，虛擬查看和內容（如無人機），您知道或認為的其他技術和房地產技術或建築技術也會對我們產生重大影響整個房地產行業？
Ivan Ko：嗯，大多數情況下是物聯網或監視系統，即用於物業管理的面部識別。另外，機器人被用在建築工地上，人類無法進入的危險或非常困難的工作。因此，那些機器人技術可以成為另一種。我一直以為，有一天我們可以擁有一個機器人來清潔幕牆。因為清潔幕牆非常危險。如果我們有一個機器人，他可以在他清潔窗簾牆的同時播放音樂或跳舞，那麼人們可以看著建築物，這一切都非常有趣。因此，我認為這種事情將會改變，並且會變得更加普遍。
Darren Wong：我知道。我認為這實際上是一個非常好的PR，因為您知道要進行預售，對嗎？那將是一個很酷的計劃。所以這很酷。所以我想我在我知道你是一個忙碌的人之前就說過。我還有最後一個問題要問，你知道，有一天，和今天相比，今天要困難得多。成為開發商會難嗎？您會推薦那些考慮成為開發商的人嗎？還是您希望他們嘗試房地產領域的不同方面？
Ivan Ko [33:06]：我的意思是，加入開發商是整個價值鏈中最關鍵的部分，因為作為基金經理，即使他們處於投注鏈的頂端，不是組織者。唯一的主要組織者是開發商，因為他們必須組織許多不同的資源：土地，人民，銀行，消費者，承包商，政府官員。他們必須處理許多事情。因此，他們將所有這些組織在一起，然後將風險分為不同的部分，並將風險從自己的風險轉移到其他各方。每個人都要承擔一定的風險，例如建築師，承包商，然後是銀行家，他們在整個開發過程中承擔著不同的風險。因此，一旦完成了整個週期，您就可以輕鬆地升任其他職位，例如基金經理，房地產經紀等，因為現在您已經了解了整個過程，就可以像創業公司一樣建立自己的企業了。道具技術，密度等。是的，我想說這是一個很好的學習過程。
開發人員的生活非常有趣。您每天都會遇到不同的問題或不同的問題。很好
Darren Wong：是的，就像我認為，因為您和我，我們都認識了一對不從事房地產行業的人，他們試圖進入道具技術領域。對我來說，就像他們的學習曲線是如此之多，因為房地產不僅關乎技術，關乎人，關乎行業，關乎世界上的整個機器，以及如何製造一件使一切正常的作品？因此，這也引起了強烈反響，因為如果我不在房地產基金中工作，那我什至無法想到Denzity。我什至沒有辦法將其視為一種選擇。因此，您所知道的東西（例如來自您的東西）是一種有趣的東西。那麼，我的最後一件事是，您希望聽眾從這次採訪中獲得什麼樣的外賣？
Ivan Ko：我認為，如果您還沒有加入房地產行業，請加入。這是一個很大的行業。價值鍊和您可以做的事情很多。我的意思是，它是無限的。我會說，房地產行業，您在該行業停留的時間越長，您完成的項目越多，您的狀況就越好。不像IT那樣，15歲的學生可以擊敗高年級學生，而且經驗也不會太多。但是在房地產領域，您停留的時間越長，您越有經驗，那就越好。尤其是在人們可能活到120歲的現在。因此，您越健康越好，但與此同時，我認為準備學習一些東西，因為行業也在發生變化。因此，我認為房地產行業會參與其中。如果您可以成為開發人員的僱員，那麼可以加入。那是您職業生涯的最佳開端。
Darren Wong：嗯。我覺得這不僅是為了發展，也是為了投資，因為很多人都喜歡管理，這是一個非常大的整體領域，您所處的位置越來越多，因為我也認識很多人，所以越來越，他們會告訴我，例如“哦，我的第一筆房地產投資根本不算什麼。”但是我做得越多，我就知道我想要什麼，我就越知道該做什麼。因此，我認為這在這個行業中是獨一無二的，因為您知道的越多，您知道那裡的東西就更多，而您只是想成為一塊海綿並學到更多。所以我認為觀眾會喜歡的。如果人們想與您聯繫以了解有關您的工作的更多信息，我們如何建議他們找到您？
Ivan Ko：哦，他們可以通過Denzity找到我。是的，或者他們可以給我發電子郵件或WhatsApp。我歡迎各種內容或聯繫，尤其是如果您對房地產行業或發展，房地產基金管理感興趣，我可以提供一些建議或幫助或其他內容，我認為該行業需要很多優秀人才，人和渴望成功事業的人。
Darren Wong：我認為那很好。顯然，在電話會議之後，我會問您類似的鏈接和諸如此類的內容，以便其他人與您聯繫。我會把所有內容都放在展示筆記中。然後我想說，伊凡，我想我想在將來做一個長篇大論，潛入您的旅程，因為我敢肯定您還有更多的故事是您沒有告訴我的，聽眾呢。我也很想親自了解一些東西。並感謝您的時間。我真的很感激。我只希望您下次再來接受我們的採訪。
Ivan Ko：是的，是我的榮幸。另外，謝謝，達倫，我認為您有一個良好的開端。
Darren Wong：謝謝。
Ivan Ko：讓我們開始吧。並取得成功。
Darren Wong：是的，我也希望如此。有一陣子了。非常感謝，非常感謝，下次再與您交談，謝謝。
Ivan Ko：好的，謝謝。再見。
